Wednesday, August 22, 2007

Vietnam, Iraq, and our Foolish Empire

The outcome will be the same. I just hope we get out sooner than later.

To all the veterans of America's many misguided and troubled wars, I salute you, and I pity you for suffering the brunt of the worst policy disasters in American history. You (and your Iraqi brothers) suffer death, maiming, and despair because the richest people in our country think they are emperors of the earth and speak to God himself. The rest of us still have a less burdensome, but still atrocious cross to bear.

"The United States also paid a high political cost for the Vietnam War. It weakened public faith in government, and in the honesty and competence of its leaders. Indeed, skepticism, if not cynicism, and a high degree of suspicion of and distrust toward authority of all kind characterized the views of an increasing number of Americans in the wake of the war."


Highland Ave. said...


Steve said...

Yes pity those poor souls who have volunteered to give their life to serve our country.

This is the height of liberal arrogance.

Guess what, you don't salute anyone that you pity- I don't expect you to get that.

The Great Hive said...

If a soldier lies legless in a VA hospital, then I suspect a great many people will salute him/her and pity them all at the same time.

There is no logical fallacy in saying good soldiers in a bad war should be pitied and saluted - pitied because their leaders sacrificed them without just cause and saluted for doing their duty without questioning their leaders, as they must.

It truly is a pity too that arrogant Republicans consider soldiers to be a political tool instead of actual people. They cry "Support the Troops" in the face of rational arguments against a war, and when the names of these pitiful, brave soldiers end up etched on a wall, they feel no remorse, or pity, and it's hard to believe they have ever sincerely saluted a soldier in their lives.

Steve said...

Your definitions of bad war are too convenient to you to make rational arguments with..and it spurns all the forthcoming anti-war rhetoric that ends up hurting and demoralizing the troops far more than your perceived lack of a just cause that Republican leadership supposedly has.

That legless vet lying in the VA hospital doesn't want anyone's pity, he wants to know that the civilian's he sacrificed his legs for support his efforts and the cause.

The Great Hive said...

Anti-war rhetoric that hurts and demoralizes the troops! What a line that is... a talking point right out of the playbook.

If honest debate about the merits of the war demoralizes the troops, then that's the price that must be paid. Questioning our leadership and debating what we should done is the foundation of democracy.

I "Support Our Troops" as much as you, and it's a filthy, dirty trick to question someone's patriotism in response to them questioning a war. Thank goodness we have protesters who questioned the Vietnam war and helped lead us out of it.

It's a shame that our "volunteer army" of poor Americans doesn't have the community behind them like the draft army did in Vietnam. If it was Richy McWhiteypants over there fighting today, then you can be damn sure there would be more protests. But no, it is the poor and the downtrodden over there fighting a war, and they shouldn't be.

The Republican leadership has no cause. The premise of the war was a lie, it diverted our resources from better fights, and has hurt our economy, our strength, and our diplomatic might across the globe.

This war needs to end.

Steve said...

LOL.. yes thats right, the economy stinks so bad now that unemployment is at near record levels(and is lower than in peace time)..the stock market has set record levels several times in the past several months..only to dip down to what were considered record levels a few months ago..and for the third year in a row, the federal deficit has been reduced(that news just came out today).

Vietnam was not a military defeat for our troops- if you review history we won every engagement over there- but our troops were defeated by those same protesters you laud, because they finally turned the politicians and forced them to abandon their resolve for the fight at hand.

We as Americans should debate and challenge our leaders on this subject, but your side of the aisle has taken it to levels that give strength to those who attack the troops, and your leaders have questioned, accused, and demoralized our troops actions while they fight- and that is most damaging.

The Great Hive said...

The economy is doing well if you are rich like you or me, but it isn't doing well for the poor and the lower middle class.

Even the robustness of the macroeconomy may only be for so long. If you believe The Economist, then the worst is yet to come in the subprime fall out. It is telling that the Fed cut the discount rate not to control inflation, but to bail out the struggling financial market.

And quit it with the lies and "Support Our Troops" rhetoric. My side hasn't accused or questioned the troops. We have accused and questioned your leaders for:

1) Lying pre-war
2) Not planning
3) Not taking care of veterans
4) Extending soldier tours over and over
5) Not properly outfitting troops in the field
6) Using the troops as a political tool
7) Sanctioning torture and suspending habeas corpus

These are not accusations against any of our men and women in uniform, and we are supporting them the best by trying to get them home safely.

Neither us liberals, nor the troops, give two shits about bringing democracy to Iraq, expanding the American empire, or any of that neo-conservative garbage.

The troops believed initially that they were defending the U.S. from the terrorist threat and from Saddam's WMD, while AS A SIDE BENEFIT, helping the Iraqi people.

But, the WMD and the threat were a lie, the war has stoked terror, and the Iraqi people are far worse off than they were under Saddam under these conditions.

I am with Barack Obama - there is no military solution in Iraq, and we were fools, and we should admit our mistake, gt our troops out, and pump billions more of our tax money into the country to rebuild and repent.

Steve said...

Thats right Hive, I forgot how Iraq was loving peaceful nation that was flourishing, had no ties to terrorist organizations, and was run by benevolent dictator who loved all peoples. My how the right wing machine had warped my mind.

We all know what happened to the WMD, so don't pretend they didn't exist. Don't also pretend that in a post 9/11 world, we could afford to sit on our hands like we did the previous 25 years. Saddam was a logical next step after destroying the Taliban. He made it even more logical by defying all attempts to clear his name.

The Great Hive said...

Conspiracy theorist alert! Implications that WMD actually existed!

Right Wing Noise machine at its best. That "post-9/11" world quote is a good old zinger too.

The world seems like the same world to me, except we lost a good bit of liberty. We're not any safer. And what do you mean"after destroying the Taliban." When did we ever do that?

You know what the next logical step after 9/11 was? It was locking the cockpits... actually that was a logical step before 9/11 that the Israelis have been following for decades.

You have been totally brainwashed.

Steve said...

Yeah I remember that day Hussein called the press conference and handed over his biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons stock and all future plans over to the U.N.

I also forgot that day Hussein held an open house for the weapons inspectors and let them roam free in his country.

If you don't think he had them, you are in direct contrast to all your Democratic Party leaders..they all claimed he had them when it was convenient to do so. Your boy Obama would have done the same had he been there.

Let the adults handle our safety, you go over on the sidelines and boo or cheer whenever its convenient for you.

Dig said...

Steve, you are completely and utterly lost, evidenced by the fact that you think the U.S. actually needed to invade Iraq, a third world country with a peasant army, because of the fear of WMD's. You believing the WMD theory is laughable. The U.S. had reasons to invade Iraq, but those reasons pertained to money and power, not fucking WMDs. Now get back into the bewildered herd where you belong, dummy.